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Post by Shenzi on Mar 20, 2010 23:28:10 GMT -5
I think I'm just a sucker for the Zira/Scar pairing and want to see it as stable as possible, all three cubs belonging to him as well, no matter how odd it'd be to place within the story. Lawl. Like a Lion King puritan, I am. XD
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Post by Kopa on Mar 20, 2010 23:30:04 GMT -5
Well, there's always the chance that Zira had Nuka, saw that he was obviously defective, and figured she'd have to try a different father for her next litter... Just a random theory... That could be exactly what she did. It would certainly explain things. Zira was fanatical about Scar, yes, maybe so fanatical that in order to take revenge on him she was willing to breed with a stronger lion once Scar was dead. Zira's not exactly playing with a full deck, you know? You do lots of crazy things when you're mad with grief and want a cub that can rip out someone's esophagus instead of a mewling little sack of skin and bones like Nuka.
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Post by Shani on Mar 20, 2010 23:35:42 GMT -5
I think I'm just a sucker for the Zira/Scar pairing and want to see it as stable as possible, all three cubs belonging to him as well, no matter how odd it'd be to place within the story. Lawl. Like a Lion King puritan, I am. XD I know what you mean, Shenzi. Really, I do. I'm all for it myself. But given the MUCK's rating of PG to PG-13, we need to avoid what I like to call the 'EWWWW' factor. Disney meant for it to be that way, but they had to go the 'Disney' way and have them not related and we must as well.
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Post by jspd on Mar 21, 2010 6:08:39 GMT -5
I just want to point out the possibility that perhaps Zira is so fanatical about Scar after his death because she went and had cubs with someone else, and then felt guilty about it once Scar died. There's a possibility that she wasn't quite so enthusiastic about Scar while he still alive, yeah?
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Post by Sinyaa | Zira on Mar 21, 2010 6:39:36 GMT -5
Well, there's always the chance that Zira had Nuka, saw that he was obviously defective, and figured she'd have to try a different father for her next litter... Just a random theory... That's pretty much what happened in our storyline. >.> And of course, as has now been mentioned, there's the whole incest factor if we're planning on at least attempting a Kovu/Kiara or Kopa/Vitani pairing, regardless of whether or not it's successful. ;3 And JSPD's response is an interesting thought, too. Man, we've all thought on this stuff way too much, huh? XD
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Post by Kibibi on Mar 21, 2010 23:38:20 GMT -5
Warning, the following is excessively detailed and not really that important since it pretty much changes nothing: Okay, so the other day Kopa and I spent way too long talking about presentation ceremonies. See, it's always bugged me that they're different. Generally ritual stuff like that is obsessively done the same way every time because every detail is so symbolically important that doing it wrong will surely result in something terrible happening. And after a long talk, Kopa and I came up with an idea that explains everything. The basic jist of it is that it's isn't just the heir that gets presented, it's any cub of the royal line; so Chaka, Kiara, and Kopa would all get presented. To save time, they'd probably do the whole litter right in a row during the same ceremony, probably in birth order. Or if they were separate litters, Chaka would have been presented by himself, and then Kopa and Kiara together in a different ceremony later. However, there's a few important differences if the heir is presented: As shown in the beginning of TLK, the crown prince or princess gets gourd juice on their forehead and dirt from the ground first. The gourd juice is the symbolic crown, and the dirt ties them to the land they will rule. Then they get taken to the promontory by themselves to be presented. Non-heirs get taken to the promontory first to be presented, and their parents join them there - Kopa had an idea for the symbolism to this difference, but I forgot it since yesterday (um, help?). Then they get the gourd juice after that, but no dirt; they get a crown but not the land. Under this theory, that explains why Kiara's presentation at the beginning of TLK2 was so different from Simba's, and that also means that the presentation at the end of TLK was Kopa's just like everyone believed all along. Chaka's presentation wouldn't be in the movies at all, but it would have been just like Simba's - He was probably being babysat by Mheetu during Kiara and Kopa's turn... Incidentally, this would also mean that there would be a different ceremony to replace a dead heir: they'd need the gourd juice and dirt treatment, and if they're old enough Rafiki could be spared carrying them to the promontory and lifting them since they should be able to walk there themselves. It'd probably be a smaller ceremony since it's a more somber occasion, what with someone dying young and all - perhaps they don't invite the entire savanna. Anyway, I wanted to put those thoughts in here somewhere, though like I said it changes nothing. I'm actually gonna put together a whole series of rituals based on what's shown in the movies for all those major life stages so that I'll be prepared for my role as Rafiki, since he seems to be the main official at most of those sorts of things. Aside from the presentation ceremony, most of them could probably be expanded a little, and there's nothing for a funeral shown.
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Post by Kopa on Mar 21, 2010 23:51:53 GMT -5
Warning, the following is excessively detailed and not really that important since it pretty much changes nothing: Okay, so the other day Kopa and I spent way too long talking about presentation ceremonies. See, it's always bugged me that they're different. Generally ritual stuff like that is obsessively done the same way every time because every detail is so symbolically important that doing it wrong will surely result in something terrible happening. And after a long talk, Kopa and I came up with an idea that explains everything. The basic jist of it is that it's isn't just the heir that gets presented, it's any cub of the royal line; so Chaka, Kiara, and Kopa would all get presented. To save time, they'd probably do the whole litter right in a row during the same ceremony, probably in birth order. Or if they were separate litters, Chaka would have been presented by himself, and then Kopa and Kiara together in a different ceremony later. However, there's a few important differences if the heir is presented: As shown in the beginning of TLK, the crown prince or princess gets gourd juice on their forehead and dirt from the ground first. The gourd juice is the symbolic crown, and the dirt ties them to the land they will rule. Then they get taken to the promontory by themselves to be presented. Non-heirs get taken to the promontory first to be presented, and their parents join them there - Kopa had an idea for the symbolism to this difference, but I forgot it since yesterday (um, help?). Then they get the gourd juice after that, but no dirt; they get a crown but not the land. Under this theory, that explains why Kiara's presentation at the beginning of TLK2 was so different from Simba's, and that also means that the presentation at the end of TLK was Kopa's just like everyone believed all along. Chaka's presentation wouldn't be in the movies at all, but it would have been just like Simba's - He was probably being babysat by Mheetu during Kiara and Kopa's turn... Incidentally, this would also mean that there would be a different ceremony to replace a dead heir: they'd need the gourd juice and dirt treatment, and if they're old enough Rafiki could be spared carrying them to the promontory and lifting them since they should be able to walk there themselves. It'd probably be a smaller ceremony since it's a more somber occasion, what with someone dying young and all - perhaps they don't invite the entire savanna. Anyway, I wanted to put those thoughts in here somewhere, though like I said it changes nothing. I'm actually gonna put together a whole series of rituals based on what's shown in the movies for all those major life stages so that I'll be prepared for my role as Rafiki, since he seems to be the main official at most of those sorts of things. Aside from the presentation ceremony, most of them could probably be expanded a little, and there's nothing for a funeral shown. I had stated that the reason that Simba and Nala are right there while Mufasa and Sarabi are back a bit was because an actual heir represents a changing of the line of rulership and so the old King/Queen is essentially passing on their mantle to the heir and so having them stand directly with the heir wouldn't be appropriate. Now, that being said, Simba and Nala might just do things differently. Mufasa and Sarabi were on the Promontory when Simba was presented. It's just that they were back a bit and watching without being directly seen by all the animals since the focus is supposed to be on Simba. I'd assume that with princes and princesses that aren't direct heirs that it's more of a family occasion which is why you see Timon, Pumbaa, Simba and Nala all there and in direct view at the end of TLK and the beginning of TLK II. Just my opinion, though. I do agree that there's probably a small, somber ritual done if an heir dies and the mantle is passed on to a younger sibling. I don't think it needs to be anything massive since it wouldn't be a happy occasion, especially if the previous heir had died young or tragically. It might just be the pride itself and close associates with the Majordomo tasked to inform the outlying groups of animals. It'd probably be somewhat similar to what we see when Scar takes over except a bit less bleak and with Rafiki's presence in some manner for ritual passing of the spirit of the land or whatnot and prayers for the soul of the previous heir. I also completely support the idea of Rafiki having ceremonies and rituals, it's obvious that's what he does and so having even a small number of little ones would do wonders for the character on the MUCK.
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Post by Shani on Mar 22, 2010 0:12:06 GMT -5
Ooh, I just love, love, LOVE this!
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Post by kwasi on Mar 22, 2010 11:52:36 GMT -5
Hate to kind of throw this out there without much context, but its been gnawing at me.
Much of the drama of the original TLK was due to the concern about kingly succession and a royal family. Its always been kept pretty vague and indistinct in the tlk mu*'s that I've ever been on.
Because there is such a thing as a Lion King, and we can assume Lion Princes (Simba and Scar), would there be such a thing as Lion "Dukes" or "Counts" and so forth; the other noble titles?
I know it sounds a little ridiculous and completely random to bring it up. And taken to the extreme it would be pretty silly. I've always just imagined that the Lions are the nobility, but there is only ever one title that gets mentioned. In MU* games, I think this led to other male lions who wanted to do anything to not have a place in the structure of things; they eventually break off to become their own little "prides" ("realms").
Anyway, its something that's never been done (or has it??) and I was curious if people just never wanted to pursue those feudal relationships (and the possible drama they may bring) in games.
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Post by Sinyaa | Zira on Mar 22, 2010 12:33:21 GMT -5
Hate to kind of throw this out there without much context, but its been gnawing at me. Much of the drama of the original TLK was due to the concern about kingly succession and a royal family. Its always been kept pretty vague and indistinct in the tlk mu*'s that I've ever been on. Because there is such a thing as a Lion King, and we can assume Lion Princes (Simba and Scar), would there be such a thing as Lion "Dukes" or "Counts" and so forth; the other noble titles? I know it sounds a little ridiculous and completely random to bring it up. And taken to the extreme it would be pretty silly. I've always just imagined that the Lions are the nobility, but there is only ever one title that gets mentioned. In MU* games, I think this led to other male lions who wanted to do anything to not have a place in the structure of things; they eventually break off to become their own little "prides" ("realms"). Anyway, its something that's never been done (or has it??) and I was curious if people just never wanted to pursue those feudal relationships (and the possible drama they may bring) in games. Sunrise had princes, princesses, lords, ladies, and maybe one or two other 'extra' titles. I think the primary use of king/queen is a combination of zoology and convenience. I could see the Pridelands, being such a 'noble'-esque pride in the original movie to begin with, having the presence of additional titles according to blood (or perhaps mate/in-law) relation as necessary, if the current royals saw it fit; however, a pride like the Outlands would likely not.
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Post by Kibibi on Mar 22, 2010 13:42:53 GMT -5
I personally think that a pride never really gets large enough for more than just kings, queens, princes, and princesses to get peerage style titles, because you too easily end up in a situation where almost everyone has them and it renders them pretty meaningless. That said, there's always room for other types of positions and roles within a pride. In particular, it's probably a good idea to figure out the role of 'extra' males within each pride - I'm sure I don't need to go into detail how problematic it can become when they're simply kicked out. You basically end up with a lot of homeless characters with frustrated players.
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Post by Sinyaa | Zira on Mar 22, 2010 17:12:27 GMT -5
I personally think that a pride never really gets large enough for more than just kings, queens, princes, and princesses to get peerage style titles, because you too easily end up in a situation where almost everyone has them and it renders them pretty meaningless. That said, there's always room for other types of positions and roles within a pride. In particular, it's probably a good idea to figure out the role of 'extra' males within each pride - I'm sure I don't need to go into detail how problematic it can become when they're simply kicked out. You basically end up with a lot of homeless characters with frustrated players. I agree, too many titles tends to make them just silly accessories rather than anything special. Another system I've heard of for providing other males in the pride with roles are having them as Knights/Guards.
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Post by Kopa on Mar 22, 2010 17:58:41 GMT -5
I personally think that a pride never really gets large enough for more than just kings, queens, princes, and princesses to get peerage style titles, because you too easily end up in a situation where almost everyone has them and it renders them pretty meaningless. That said, there's always room for other types of positions and roles within a pride. In particular, it's probably a good idea to figure out the role of 'extra' males within each pride - I'm sure I don't need to go into detail how problematic it can become when they're simply kicked out. You basically end up with a lot of homeless characters with frustrated players. I agree, too many titles tends to make them just silly accessories rather than anything special. Another system I've heard of for providing other males in the pride with roles are having them as Knights/Guards. I don't think it's necessary to have a huge lion nobility. We don't see any evidence of that in TLK and as Kibibi pointed out I doubt any of the prides is going to large enough to need that kind of a feudal system. If we had something like that we'd need to figure out what each title means and what it entitles characters to and that would just get in the way of actual roleplay. My philosophy is to keep it simple. We've got pridal members, some of whom are connected to the royal family though blood (Mheetu, for example) and others who might not be, but they aren't given any special consideration just as other pride members aren't shunned for not being connected to royalty. The King and Queen protect and care for their pride members equally and that's really all there is to it. That being said, though, we do know that there are some positions such as Chief Huntress and Majordomo, so I'm sure there are others that aren't titles of nobility but more general descriptions of someone's duties to the pride.
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Post by Shani on Mar 22, 2010 19:19:21 GMT -5
Everyone wants to feel important and having a title tends to make one feel as such. I know it always did for me. Yet, there are other ways as well and since we're such a small group, we shouldn't have a need. But, perhaps if we get bigger, then we can ponder the subject more.
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