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Post by Kopa on Mar 14, 2010 21:22:44 GMT -5
Shweet! Thanks! :] Also, you have a point there about the hyenas. I would like them to be involved in the opening scene, but yeah, we wouldn't want Simba catching scent of them and thinking that they were behind it too. But, maybe at the 'trial' of Zira and her lionesses, they could like.. proudly take credit for killing Chaka? They seem so blunt about wanting everything back, and Zira's kinda crazy anyway, so maybe she could be all like, "No way! Those hyenas aren't smart enough to pull that off!" Or something. I don't know. Maybe they could even be cornered in that trial as well, and that could even escalate the conflict between them and the outlanders? Hmm, what if it's the other way around? You mentioned earlier the hyenas wanting to hunt in the Pridelands and being against the Outlanders. What if they help condemn Zira by pointing out that they managed to catch her slinking away from the scene of the crime? That might get them closer to Simba and would instantly make Zira hate them for putting a foil in her plans. |
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Post by Shenzi on Mar 14, 2010 21:28:08 GMT -5
Ooh, I do like that idea better. Makes more sense, actually.
So, in theory, and very vaguely:
- Zira kills Chaka
- Hyenas happened to be hunting nearby, smelled the blood, went to investigate
- Zira is slinking off to escape the scene of the crime
- Simba and other Pridelanders catch hyenas nearby, and blame them
- Hyenas explain that they saw Zira kill the cub
- Simba and other Pridelanders corner Zira and the other Outlanders, and the trial begins?
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Post by Kopa on Mar 14, 2010 21:29:12 GMT -5
Ooh, I do like that idea better. Makes more sense, actually. So, in theory, and very vaguely: - Zira kills Chaka - Hyenas happened to be hunting nearby, smelled the blood, went to investigate - Zira is slinking off to escape the scene of the crime - Simba and other Pridelanders catch hyenas nearby, and blame them - Hyenas explain that they saw Zira kill the cub - Simba and other Pridelanders corner Zira and the other Outlanders, and the trial begins? Pretty much, I figure Kopa would've told them that Zira was attacking Chaka and since Kopa'd have blood all around his mouth from biting off a piece of Zira's ear they'd know something was up. Whether Simba mistakes the hyenas as 'finishing off' Chaka or not is up to him. |
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Post by Shenzi on Mar 14, 2010 21:34:22 GMT -5
in b4 they eat the dead Chaka. Naw, naw, that's not cool. :[
That could be an example of Kopa defending the Hyenas, and maybe that could butter Simba up to them a little as well? That he knows they're telling the truth because his own son is defending what they're saying?
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Post by Kibibi on Mar 14, 2010 21:48:10 GMT -5
Sounds pretty plausible to me, and that way nobody's favorite FC gets themselves killed. But I personally think it might be better if the whole thing happened while the cubs were still very, very young - probably too young to be out and about. But that's mostly because I'd kinda prefer to at least start things with the canon (allowing for filling in loopholes) even if we deviate from it afterwards. Kiara is obviously still an infant during her presentation at the beginning of the second movie, so perhaps instead Zira was somehow left alone with the newborn cubs for too-long-but-not-long-enough? Or maybe she didn't care about getting caught and only managed to get one of them? If Kovu only knew the other cubs as infants then that'd explain why they don't recognise eachother later. Anyway, that's my $0.02 - do whatever you want with it.
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Post by Shenzi on Mar 14, 2010 21:54:27 GMT -5
I do like that idea, Kibibi, but that would kind of toss out the idea of Kopa being able to defend the Hyenas, if he was too young. By that I mean, too young to speak. So, as long as he was able to speak and connect the dots that Zira was the one that killed Chaka, I would really like that idea.
The bit about her being in charge of the cubs sounds good, too. I've seen fanart of stories like that, I'm pretty sure. Only thing is: Simba and Nala knew that Zira was Scar's mate. Unless she'd been a really good actress and hid how much she totally hated their guts for what happened to Scar, I kind of doubt they'd leave their cubs in her command, don't you think?
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Post by Kibibi on Mar 14, 2010 21:57:28 GMT -5
Well, a kid can point an accusing finger at a very early age.  Or be obviously freaked out by a particular lioness and not the hyenas, for that matter. |
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Post by Kopa on Mar 14, 2010 21:59:39 GMT -5
Sounds pretty plausible to me, and that way nobody's favorite FC gets themselves killed. But I personally think it might be better if the whole thing happened while the cubs were still very, very young - probably too young to be out and about. But that's mostly because I'd kinda prefer to at least start things with the canon (allowing for filling in loopholes) even if we deviate from it afterwards. Kiara is obviously still an infant during her presentation at the beginning of the second movie, so perhaps instead Zira was somehow left alone with the newborn cubs for too-long-but-not-long-enough? Or maybe she didn't care about getting caught and only managed to get one of them? If Kovu only knew the other cubs as infants then that'd explain why they don't recognise eachother later. Anyway, that's my $0.02 - do whatever you want with it. Well, the problem with starting totally canon is that nobody wants to play a baby cub, everybody wants to play around the age of Simba and Nala in the beginning of TLK. There's also the fact that if they're newborn cubs then why didn't Zira just take all of them out, one bite each? If they're Young Simba age they can at least fight back enough to annoy her (like Kopa biting her ear), scream or run for help, etc. Another thing is that if we start directly from canon there's not really any big 'send off' moments that I can think of that would draw people in. (Let's face it, TLK IIs opening was just done to show Kiara was different from the cub at the end of TLK.) If there's a big murder + trial scene that gets a bunch of characters involved and really sets a dramatic stage and lays the ground work for the war between the prides on-stage for everybody to see I think it'd have a bigger impact. As for Shenzi's idea, of Kopa defending the hyenas, that could work. I was also thinking that maybe Simba's so angry with Zira that Kopa steps in and points out that Nuka, Vitani and Kovu didn't do anything and shouldn't be exiled. Maybe they were playmates or something and Simba could shout him down because he's a cub? |
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Post by Kibibi on Mar 14, 2010 22:16:03 GMT -5
Well I've always like that stage, personally. And it doesn't last too long anyway. But as I don't have any characters that would be directly involved, I'll bow to the opinions of others. However, please think about poor Rafiki; he's an old guy, and you lion cubs get pretty heavy pretty quickly.  |
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Post by Kopa on Mar 14, 2010 22:18:08 GMT -5
Well I've always like that stage, personally. And it doesn't last too long anyway. But as I don't have any characters that would be directly involved, I'll bow to the opinions of others. However, please think about poor Rafiki; he's an old guy, and you lion cubs get pretty heavy pretty quickly. I always found it kind of boring, myself. What can I do? Oh, blink and wobble around. Yay. ;p Don't worry about Rafiki, I'm pretty sure we'll be starting after the whole presentation thing just so we can get the plot moving. |
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Post by Shani on Mar 14, 2010 22:23:11 GMT -5
These are all very good ideas, indeed. It would be very interesting to have the MUCK start out that way.
What about this idea, in keeping with Kopa defending the hyenas later... the cubs are all young enough to roam around, of course.. and Sarabi is cubsitting them, Zira runs up, yelling some story in order to get Sarabi away. She lays it on thick, feigning concern and gets to be alone with the cubs, allowing her to take out Chaka only before the alarm is called.
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Post by Kopa on Mar 14, 2010 22:25:54 GMT -5
These are all very good ideas, indeed. It would be very interesting to have the MUCK start out that way. What about this idea, in keeping with Kopa defending the hyenas later... the cubs are all young enough to roam around, of course.. and Sarabi is cubsitting them, Zira runs up, yelling some story in order to get Sarabi away. She lays it on thick, feigning concern and gets to be alone with the cubs, allowing her to take out Chaka only before the alarm is called. Zira: Sarabi! Stampede, in the Gorge! Simba's do-wait, that's no good! Doesn't that kind of make Sarabi come out in a bad light, though? The whole 'If you hadn't listened to her our son would still be alive!' thing? I have to wonder if she'd fall for it, knowing what happened with Mufasa and Simba. |
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Post by Shani on Mar 14, 2010 22:44:58 GMT -5
Zira: Sarabi! Stampede, in the Gorge! Simba's do-wait, that's no good! Doesn't that kind of make Sarabi come out in a bad light, though? The whole 'If you hadn't listened to her our son would still be alive!' thing? I have to wonder if she'd fall for it, knowing what happened with Mufasa and Simba. No, I don't think she would for the simple fact that she was lied to. Did Simba come out in a bad light for listening to Scar? And with everything that would come after, all the blame would fall entirely on Zira's bony shoulders. I'm trying to come up with ideas, too, here.  |
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Post by Kopa on Mar 14, 2010 23:18:45 GMT -5
Zira: Sarabi! Stampede, in the Gorge! Simba's do-wait, that's no good! Doesn't that kind of make Sarabi come out in a bad light, though? The whole 'If you hadn't listened to her our son would still be alive!' thing? I have to wonder if she'd fall for it, knowing what happened with Mufasa and Simba. No, I don't think she would for the simple fact that she was lied to. Did Simba come out in a bad light for listening to Scar? And with everything that would come after, all the blame would fall entirely on Zira's bony shoulders. I'm trying to come up with ideas, too, here. Probably true on that one, Shani. I'm just having a hard time seeing Sarabi leaving the cubs at the urging of Scar's mate no matter how persuasive she was. At least not without finding someone a bit more trustworthy to watch them. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I kind of figure Zira would be on thin ice to begin with. She was Scar's mate and so she would've openly supported Scar during his reign. I can imagine everybody being pretty suspicious of her even if she was playing at having a change of heart. That being said, another option would be to have the Outlanders in the Outlands at the beginning of the plot and to not have killed anybody. Maybe all they did was support Scar and the Hyenas in the fight against Simba and his supporters in the climax of TLK? We don't really see the whole fight and since Zira was Scar's mate I doubt she would've fought against him in the final battle. |
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Post by Shani on Mar 14, 2010 23:50:32 GMT -5
No, I don't think she would for the simple fact that she was lied to. Did Simba come out in a bad light for listening to Scar? And with everything that would come after, all the blame would fall entirely on Zira's bony shoulders. I'm trying to come up with ideas, too, here. Probably true on that one, Shani. I'm just having a hard time seeing Sarabi leaving the cubs at the urging of Scar's mate no matter how persuasive she was. At least not without finding someone a bit more trustworthy to watch them. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I kind of figure Zira would be on thin ice to begin with. She was Scar's mate and so she would've openly supported Scar during his reign. I can imagine everybody being pretty suspicious of her even if she was playing at having a change of heart. That being said, another option would be to have the Outlanders in the Outlands at the beginning of the plot and to not have killed anybody. Maybe all they did was support Scar and the Hyenas in the fight against Simba and his supporters in the climax of TLK? We don't really see the whole fight and since Zira was Scar's mate I doubt she would've fought against him in the final battle. Maybe in the end it's just a hopeless thought and we need to find another idea to use. Maybe it wasn't Zira that killed Chaka, but Nuka... and being his mother, she took the blame for it. After all, we all know that Nuka's a bit touched in the head. We know the reason why Zira wasn't there.. because she didn't exist yet at the end of TLK. And if we want to add in fan fiction, Scar was mated to Elanna, Sarabi's sister. But that's a whole different story. |
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Or be obviously freaked out by a particular lioness and not the hyenas, for that matter.
